Transcript
[00:00] Some people say that online courses are
[00:02] dead, but the truth is it’s still a
[00:05] billiondoll a day industry. But here’s
[00:07] the problem. People are jaded. Courses
[00:09] have a bad rap. Some feel like scams.
[00:12] And frankly, a lot of them are. And
[00:14] students are burnt out on empty
[00:16] promises. So, how do you stand out in
[00:18] the middle of all of this? And how do
[00:20] you create a course that actually gets
[00:21] results, builds your reputation, gives
[00:24] your students transformation instead of
[00:26] just more information? That’s why today
[00:29] I brought on Marica Mgatroy. She’s
[00:31] helped over 18,000 students successfully
[00:34] launch their businesses and generate
[00:36] more than 16,000 selling it. then
[07:37] delivered one-on-one Instagram makeovers
[07:39] that gave her the experience that also
[07:41] allowed her to tr to create a better
[07:43] course at the end of the day, but she
[07:44] got paid to build her product and to
[07:47] test her idea with the simpler version
[07:49] before going to the fully scalable
[07:51] leveraged version. So if you don’t have
[07:53] experience kind of selling the thing
[07:55] that you ultimately want to sell or
[07:56] delivering the transformation, get that
[07:59] experience in the easiest way possible.
[08:01] do it in a way that tests that core
[08:03] solution. So, you know, if you can sell
[08:05] the MVP version, then you’re going to be
[08:07] able to sell that kind of next level
[08:09] version as well. So, that’s kind of my
[08:12] recommendation. And then you have real
[08:14] stories and um that you can share in
[08:17] your marketing with real testimonials
[08:19] and case studies and videos. So, it just
[08:21] feels a lot more real because a lot of
[08:23] times when people start, they kind of it
[08:25] feels like you’re selling a can of hot
[08:26] air to be quite honest, right? It
[08:29] doesn’t exist yet. It’s invisible. Like,
[08:31] so you’ve got that feeling to it before
[08:33] because it’s not really real to you and
[08:35] it’s not really real to the world. So,
[08:36] make it real to you. Make it real to the
[08:39] world. Get those first success stories
[08:41] so you can speak about it in this
[08:43] grounded embodied way because you’ve had
[08:45] the experience.
[08:46] >> Yeah. So, what I’m learning from you is
[08:48] some of the biggest red flags if you’re
[08:50] going to purchase a course is if you’re
[08:55] seeing somebody make outrageous huge
[08:57] promises, make huge claims, and also if
[09:00] they’re lacking testimonials, and if you
[09:03] can’t dig into the average results, not
[09:06] just the outlier results. That is some
[09:08] of the biggest red flags. And that’s why
[09:10] a lot of people think courses are scams,
[09:12] because they often are. They made huge
[09:14] promises. They don’t really deliver.
[09:15] They’re maybe just marketed well and
[09:17] they also just might be an information
[09:19] dump or something, but they’re not
[09:20] actually getting people to a
[09:22] destination. They make promises, but
[09:24] they’re not a GPS to get people to a
[09:25] destination. But I also am learning from
[09:27] you. The good news is though that also
[09:29] creates a gap because it’s like, well,
[09:30] how do you get into the industry before
[09:33] getting to your level where you’re
[09:34] getting 10 times better the industry
[09:36] average? You’ve got all of these
[09:38] testimonials.
[09:39] But if I’m starting from scratch and
[09:41] that’s solvable by starting small and
[09:43] starting simple and creating a minimum
[09:45] viable product, a simple course, quick
[09:49] wins for people, something you can also
[09:51] uh launch quickly so that you can get
[09:54] those first few testimonials. I also
[09:56] like what she said here. It’s actually
[09:57] how I started our video ranking academy
[09:59] program that you might even before
[10:03] building and fully packaging the course,
[10:05] you might do it more interactive. You
[10:07] might do it as a service. your case
[10:08] study was, you know, a a service of
[10:10] somebody actually holding people’s hands
[10:12] to do an Instagram makeover with them.
[10:14] When I was designing Video Ranking
[10:16] Academy, I figured out my framework. I
[10:18] figured out my seven steps. I had been
[10:20] doing it in my own life. I actually
[10:22] onetoone DM’d people and I said, “Hey,
[10:26] would you be open to me sharing this
[10:28] information with you, walking you
[10:30] through this actually for free?” Great.
[10:31] Now, you might recommend there’s a way
[10:32] to sell it, but and I actually just
[10:34] first thought, so that if it works for
[10:36] you and you like it, would you be
[10:39] willing to give me a testimonial in
[10:40] exchange? I wanted those first few
[10:42] testimonials and I wanted a chance to in
[10:45] an interactive. What I liked about that
[10:46] too was it wasn’t just like filming a
[10:49] video and then putting it out there
[10:50] without the feedback. I was able to
[10:52] learn and interact with the person and
[10:54] have them kind of poke holes in my ideas
[10:56] or get confused. And I did it with I
[10:59] want to say I think I reached out to 10
[11:01] people. Three said yes. I went through
[11:03] that process with three people. I got
[11:05] three testimonials. And it also really
[11:08] helped me refine my idea early on. Is
[11:11] that kind of what you’re describing?
[11:12] >> Yeah. So if you’re going to do it for
[11:14] free, and you can, I recommend limiting
[11:16] it to like one or two or three people
[11:18] because sometimes that becomes a crutch
[11:20] of just continuing to give it away for
[11:22] free. Um, but the thing that really
[11:24] matters is when it comes to pricing and
[11:27] value, you have to be able to embody
[11:29] that price point and embody that value.
[11:32] So, if you feel like, you know what,
[11:34] I’ve not done this. I don’t have proof.
[11:36] I don’t have results. I just don’t feel
[11:38] comfortable. You’re not going to make
[11:39] that sale because you’re kind of like
[11:41] selling from your back foot. So if it
[11:43] takes doing it two or three times with
[11:46] someone for free to give you that
[11:48] embodied confidence then yes because
[11:50] confidence is actually demonstrated
[11:53] success and you can’t manufacture
[11:56] confidence. Experts will say yeah just
[11:58] flip the confidence switch and like fake
[12:00] it till you make it. But people can
[12:02] sniff a fake out from a mile away. And
[12:04] this isn’t about thinking that you’re a
[12:06] fraud or anything like that. It’s just
[12:07] about creating a container in which you
[12:09] can get some demonstrated success and
[12:12] traction with someone and that will give
[12:14] you a whole different level of
[12:16] confidence. You can also do a beta
[12:18] group. So, there are some kinds of
[12:20] programs and things that one-on-one is
[12:21] not possible for or it’s really tricky
[12:24] and maybe you want to do a small group
[12:25] of three or six or whatever else it
[12:28] happens to be. And I recommend a a
[12:31] particular rapid, you know, product
[12:32] creation methodology there where you
[12:35] just deliver it live the first time on
[12:37] Zoom and record all the sessions and
[12:38] then people don’t expect it to be
[12:40] perfect and then you can interact and
[12:42] engage. You invite them to write in the
[12:44] chat if something’s not clear and then
[12:46] you’re making it more interactive. you
[12:48] might actually realize they have
[12:49] questions that you never even thought to
[12:51] put in there. And so you can make the
[12:52] training better and refine or even if
[12:55] you’re not good on the spot and kind of
[12:56] changing it as you go, you then change
[12:59] the next training that you’re going to
[13:00] deliver based on the feedback that you
[13:02] got or add some supplemental, you know,
[13:04] behind the scenes or look over my
[13:06] shoulder things to kind of fill in the
[13:07] gaps as resources. So, it’s a really
[13:10] good way to do it and it takes the
[13:12] pressure off and it’s so much easier
[13:14] than um you think it can be. Of course,
[13:17] you got to get certain things right, but
[13:19] it’s definitely a lot easier. And I
[13:20] think so many people will go and look
[13:22] at, say, your finished product, your jet
[13:25] plane version or my jet plane version.
[13:26] I’m in my 10th year delivering the
[13:28] program, right? And then try to create
[13:30] that from the ground up. But my first
[13:32] version wasn’t like that. My first
[13:34] version I delivered live. I think I was
[13:35] there live five days a week to deliver
[13:37] it. It was like that sense. People were
[13:39] coming on live every single day of the
[13:40] week and I delivered it. But those first
[13:43] group of students who who um you know
[13:45] don’t think that your first version is
[13:47] going to be bad. My first version of
[13:49] teaching people how to create experience
[13:50] products. I think I I had about um 400
[13:54] or 450 people and I had I had already
[13:56] had a pretty um sizable following when I
[13:59] created my first course. But many of
[14:01] them have now created million-dollar
[14:03] businesses and I’m still in touch with
[14:05] them because they were on with me every
[14:07] single day and we got to know each other
[14:09] and create that relationship and that’s
[14:11] really precious. So the first people get
[14:13] the advantage of access and a level of
[14:17] kind of care and engagement that will
[14:19] never come again, you know. So when you
[14:21] have that beta program, those beta
[14:23] students feel like they’re on the ground
[14:24] floor, those beta customers of
[14:26] something. So, they’re co-creating it
[14:28] with you. And that experience often
[14:30] times is just got an irreplaceable
[14:33] quality. So, minimum viable does not
[14:36] mean that you’re you’re kind of
[14:37] delivering something that’s not complete
[14:40] or that’s inferior. It just means
[14:43] simple. And a lot of times simple
[14:45] actually matches what people want. For
[14:47] them to be simple, to be real, to be
[14:49] authentic, to be raw. People like that.
[14:51] They don’t necessarily like the the
[14:53] finished jetplane versions. There’s
[14:54] certainly advantages to that, but
[14:56] there’s an advantage to the first
[14:58] versions, too. So, I think people forget
[15:00] that. Um, so even as you evolve, you’re
[15:03] going to look back and remember those
[15:04] first kind of um versions with with
[15:07] fondness. I bet you remember all three
[15:09] of those clients. You probably name
[15:10] them. You probably know what they’re up
[15:11] to today.
[15:12] >> Exactly. It’s been it’s relationships
[15:13] that have lasted since that time. And
[15:16] so, I love all these insights. Now, this
[15:18] does kind of bring us to the next step.
[15:19] I do want to talk about the future of
[15:21] online courses, how things are changing
[15:23] and some of the pitfalls that people can
[15:24] follow in if they don’t adapt right now.
[15:27] But the next step for many if they want
[15:29] to say I want to tap into a billion
[15:31] dollar a day industry, I want to do it
[15:33] the right way. They will struggle with
[15:35] what should my idea be and what actually
[15:40] is not just an idea that pops in my mind
[15:42] that I want to do but what will actually
[15:43] be successful, what will actually um
[15:47] resonate with the market, be aligned
[15:48] with my passions. Um you do have a free
[15:51] resource. I think in the future it’s
[15:52] actually something you charge for
[15:54] depending on when people are listening
[15:55] to this, but if they want to check it
[15:56] out, it’s a five-day challenge to help
[15:58] people come up with their course idea.
[16:00] Um, and can you tell us about what
[16:02] exactly that is? And you know what I
[16:04] like? How long does it take a day? Like
[16:06] what what
[16:07] >> Yes. So these are actually five to 10
[16:10] minute videos that might take you
[16:11] another 5 to 10 minutes or 15 minutes to
[16:14] implement, but I also give you AI tools
[16:16] that I’ve customd designed to help with
[16:18] the three hardest steps as well. So I
[16:21] actually um this miniourse um is the
[16:25] distillation of 15 years in the
[16:28] industry. And so the ability to get
[16:31] someone to that right idea hyper fast is
[16:34] actually uh they always say the
[16:36] simplicity on the far side of complexity
[16:38] right of just having done this so many
[16:41] times with so many thousands and
[16:42] thousands of people to kind of know
[16:44] where the hang-ups are and what are the
[16:45] essential steps and lenses for kind of
[16:48] fine-tuning and sharpening that idea
[16:50] because a lot of what people do it just
[16:52] kind of spins you in circles but the
[16:54] idea is kind of where you meet the
[16:56] market and that’s critical. I think one
[16:57] thing that stops creators or people who
[16:59] really want to start is they’re looking
[17:00] at what they want to teach or deliver
[17:02] and they’re not really considering where
[17:04] is the market now who are your customers
[17:06] specific and if you think of a van
[17:07] diagram you know where one side is what
[17:10] you want and the other side is what the
[17:12] customers want I heard this that if you
[17:14] start closer to the the center of where
[17:16] the customer wants at the edge of what
[17:18] you want to deliver that’s the best way
[17:20] to start and then you can kind of move
[17:21] more towards the center of what you want
[17:23] to deliver and the edge of what they
[17:24] want once you’ve got that reputation
[17:26] built But switching from hey I want to
[17:29] create a course to what problem can I
[17:31] solve? What transformation can I
[17:33] deliver? You know where do I see people
[17:36] struggling or hurting or suffering
[17:37] needlessly or even how can I bring them
[17:40] more happiness or joy in the moments of
[17:41] their life. You know these are the
[17:43] questions to ask that open the veins of
[17:45] gold and that’s kind of what we’re
[17:47] looking for. What are those veins of
[17:49] gold where you can you can kind of serve
[17:52] that? And when you do, um, you know,
[17:54] people are just excited because it’s not
[17:56] about selling a course. It’s about
[17:59] giving people a pathway to solve a a
[18:02] really gnarly challenging problem in
[18:05] their life or realize a hope, a dream,
[18:07] an aspiration, a goal that they just
[18:10] might have been struggling with for five
[18:11] or 10 years. And I always like to say is
[18:14] that when you if you have a solution
[18:16] like that, if you can help people solve
[18:18] a problem, in some ways you’re being
[18:20] selfish by not doing it because then I
[18:23] think people think that they need to
[18:24] have everything perfect, but then it
[18:26] becomes about you, right? And then your
[18:28] fears can be paralyzing. But when I flip
[18:31] the lens to thinking about as what can I
[18:33] help people do, then it makes my inner
[18:36] voice. It like just flips the switch on
[18:38] it. Kind of like a a train where you go
[18:40] on this track or that track. You can go
[18:42] down the track of all your fears and
[18:43] your doubts, or you can go down the
[18:45] track of, wow, I’ve got a lot of good I
[18:47] can do in the world, a lot of people
[18:48] that I can help, a lot of problems I can
[18:50] solve. And I’ve learned to just sort of
[18:52] like pull that lever to switch myself
[18:54] that way. and then recognize, you know,
[18:56] why would I let these stupid fears and
[18:58] doubts that are just not even true stop
[19:00] me from having this impact, making this
[19:03] difference while also being able to make
[19:05] an incredible living for myself, and
[19:06] having this awesome life where I get to
[19:08] wake up and just do things that I love
[19:10] and help people in ways that are deeply
[19:13] fulfilling.
[19:13] >> Well, I love uh the insights you’re
[19:15] sharing here. And if that sounds
[19:17] interesting to you and you want to crack
[19:20] your profitable course a um idea using
[19:24] three free AI tools, um that resource is
[19:28] available at smartrc ideas.com. Now, of
[19:31] course, we’ll link that up in the show
[19:32] notes. And for anyone who’s a longtime
[19:34] listener of the Think Media podcast,
[19:36] that distinction you made, I love
[19:38] because it’s a free 5-day challenge, but
[19:41] people have been a part of our
[19:42] challenges and they’ve learned. It’s
[19:43] very valuable, but usually like 90
[19:45] minutes to two hours a day. So, the fact
[19:47] that you can get fierce clarity on your
[19:50] course idea as well as the strategy
[19:52] behind it in just a few minutes a day. I
[19:55] love the way you’ve done that. It’s, by
[19:57] the way, it has me inspired to think
[19:58] about how I could bring transformation
[20:00] faster and um how I could create
[20:02] something that is just as efficient and
[20:05] helpful uh for our community, but that
[20:07] will be for the future. So, if you’re
[20:09] listening to this smartcourse.com
[20:12] and I’ll link that up in the show notes,
[20:13] we do need to talk about this next part
[20:15] and this is so important. The experience
[20:18] information divide. The course industry
[20:22] has been massively disrupted.
[20:25] understatement. You know, you’ve been it
[20:27] 15 years. I think that I I think the
[20:29] first online course I purchased I
[20:31] purchased 15 years ago or so, right
[20:34] around 2010, maybe 2009. And then I
[20:36] started learning about it in the success
[20:38] of years and there’s been so many
[20:40] changes. But then boom, AI hits the uh
[20:44] the industry plus competition plus
[20:46] saturation plus this idea. Yes, Seth
[20:49] Goden wrote a book called, you know, all
[20:51] marketers are liars or all marketers
[20:53] ruin everything. The nature of just
[20:56] marketers and content creators and the
[20:58] fact there’s going to be bad actors out
[20:59] there that don’t have great reputation
[21:01] but reputations but just, you know, kind
[21:03] of like vultures jump on these different
[21:05] opportunities. It’s created an
[21:07] environment where there’s just massive
[21:08] disruption. And of course, it gives some
[21:10] people pause to even wanting to get into
[21:12] the industry. I don’t want to be scammy
[21:14] or sy. it’s caused, you know, some
[21:17] people pause because is it too
[21:19] competitive or is AI just replacing
[21:21] courses? But you really teach about
[21:24] experience compared to information and
[21:27] let’s start as we’re having this
[21:28] conversation in the section of the
[21:30] podcast. You call it the thud factor.
[21:32] What’s this thud factor and what what’s
[21:34] changed?
[21:35] >> Yeah. So I actually remember being in a
[21:37] conference room like in 2011 or 2012
[21:42] when I was just getting my start and on
[21:44] the stage um uh was actually well I
[21:48] won’t say who it was but was this guy
[21:51] being like you want to deliver so much
[21:54] value you create the thud factor it’s
[21:56] like you know and you want to and they
[21:58] was also talking about print on demand
[21:59] you wanted to print and demand and like
[22:01] ship DVDs and CDs to people’s doorstep
[22:04] and have it be this big box that would
[22:06] like land with the thud. So they would
[22:08] be thinking, “Oh my god, look at the
[22:09] value in here.” And I remember that in
[22:13] my very first program, I did that and
[22:15] each module was like a course in and of
[22:17] itself. And I was just trying to do this
[22:20] big comprehensive everything that you
[22:22] need to know about online business
[22:23] course because that’s what the kinds of
[22:25] programs that people were creating back
[22:27] in the early 2010s, right? And I
[22:30] realized that the thud factor is really
[22:32] the sound of people’s hopes and dreams
[22:33] collapsing to the floor and desperation.
[22:36] Uh because people don’t want all of your
[22:39] knowledge and expertise and all the
[22:41] possible information to get a particular
[22:43] result result. They want what I call the
[22:46] bird’s eye view. So you might have heard
[22:48] like as the crow flies, right? Um you
[22:51] want to think about that in your
[22:52] program. What is the fastest route to
[22:55] the destination? So assuming that people
[22:57] don’t want to become an expert, if
[22:59] you’re doing a certification or train
[23:00] the trainer, that’s a different thing.
[23:02] But for most things that most people
[23:04] want to learn, what’s the fastest,
[23:05] simplest path to the outcome? And that’s
[23:08] actually something that AI is not always
[23:10] good at because AI has access to all of
[23:13] human knowledge and all of human
[23:15] information, including bad advice and
[23:17] good advice. If it’s been published,
[23:19] it’s querying this. Am I right? So based
[23:22] someone who’s got expertise in a
[23:24] particular area
[23:26] >> and knows what it takes through grounded
[23:29] practice. I like to like you know
[23:32] personally I’m a practitioner. I’m never
[23:34] going to be the person who only teaches
[23:36] and no longer does something myself. I
[23:38] just completed my 33rd course and
[23:40] program launched it this year. Just
[23:43] finished delivering it. So I know when
[23:44] I’m still in the weeds and I’m still
[23:46] doing it on a regular basis to be able
[23:48] to understand how the market has changed
[23:49] and how I can continue to evolve. So the
[23:52] best courses come from practitioners but
[23:55] also practitioners who’ve learned how to
[23:57] teach and deliver results to others not
[23:59] just a result that they’ve done
[24:01] themselves. Right? So it the the idea is
[24:04] creating that bird’s eye view the
[24:06] fastest path to the destination where
[24:08] you say you know yes you could do this
[24:10] this and this but honestly these are the
[24:12] essential things like you’d commented on
[24:13] wow 5 to 10 minute video a day to crack
[24:17] the idea well that distillation comes
[24:20] from 15 years of experience is that
[24:22] making sense so I know that
[24:24] >> 100%
[24:25] >> 50 possible ways to come up with your
[24:27] idea but I found just the five that
[24:29] actually move the needle and I’m going
[24:31] to remove the other 45 for you. So this
[24:33] is what the best courses do. So courses
[24:36] um there’s a difference between like
[24:39] just information dumps like I said which
[24:41] is just let me just give you a bunch of
[24:42] information and you you used to have
[24:45] entire modules which was just context
[24:47] sitting. Now I believe in getting people
[24:49] into action from moment one of day one
[24:51] because how someone starts is how
[24:53] they’re going to finish. So right away,
[24:54] the way I teach people to create courses
[24:56] is you want to deliver a win um within
[24:59] the very first thing that people do and
[25:01] make it a win that sets the stage for
[25:03] the ultimate win at the end of your
[25:05] program. And so you want to train people
[25:07] that anytime they interact and engage
[25:09] with you, they’re going to do things
[25:11] that allow them to win and get one step
[25:14] closer to that destination that we were
[25:16] talking about. Right? So, what you’re
[25:18] doing is you’re creating an
[25:19] implementation roadmap and you’re giving
[25:22] people the step-by-step instructions in
[25:25] a way that actually is super simple that
[25:27] anyone can do it where you’re removing
[25:29] complexity, you’re removing doubt,
[25:30] you’re giving templates, you’re giving
[25:31] frameworks, you’re giving formulas so
[25:33] you can’t lose. Does that make sense?
[25:35] So, let me give you an example to make
[25:37] this real. I had a student who was
[25:39] teaching musicians how to get their
[25:41] music listed on television shows. And um
[25:45] the very first step that he had people
[25:47] do before he came to me was um go kind
[25:51] of fill out the paperwork to get
[25:53] registered with each of the TV studios
[25:55] that accepted music by amateur
[25:57] musicians. And I was like, “Dude, you’re
[25:59] asking musicians to do paperwork. You
[26:01] know, you can get there, but I wouldn’t
[26:03] start there.” And so I had him
[26:06] reconfigure the program where the very
[26:08] first step was to create the dream um 50
[26:11] list which is the 50 television shows
[26:13] that if you were on just one show uh by
[26:16] the end of the program it would be a
[26:18] massive win. But here’s where a lot of
[26:20] people don’t take it far enough. Then
[26:23] you have them go just figure out well
[26:24] what are your favorite shows? You want
[26:26] to do the laid work on behalf of your
[26:29] students so there there’s no place for
[26:32] them to get stuck. So I said, “Okay, so
[26:34] go figure out what are all the shows
[26:36] that do accept submissions. Then I want
[26:38] you to organize them by genre, right?
[26:41] And then have people look at all the
[26:43] different shows.” And now if everyone
[26:44] put something on their list, they’re
[26:46] like reinforcing the promise and the
[26:48] destination 50 times over every single
[26:50] time they checked off one of these
[26:52] things on the list. Does that make
[26:53] sense? So I’m going to choose these 50
[26:54] shows. You’ve got it sorted and
[26:56] organized for me. I know it’s feasible.
[26:58] Then then they have a vision of what
[27:01] success looks like. So that very first
[27:03] training it gets them into an action but
[27:05] an action that sets up the destination
[27:08] and then creates desire to continue. And
[27:10] we want that action to be so simple that
[27:12] nobody can fail. Right? So removing all
[27:15] friction while making the action step
[27:17] clear and creating an action that
[27:19] creates a vision of the future too. Now
[27:21] when people started the course like the
[27:23] success rates just skyrocketed by simply
[27:26] changing the very first steps. So, this
[27:28] is an example where if AI was saying,
[27:30] “How do you get your,” if you were to
[27:31] ask AI, “How do I get my music listed on
[27:34] television?” They would probably tell
[27:36] you to go, “Well, here you have to go to
[27:38] this website and fill out this paperwork
[27:39] and do this stuff.” And you’re like,
[27:43] at that point in time, but here’s the
[27:45] thing. This is actually a difference
[27:47] between um I don’t want to get too
[27:48] geeky, but it’s something called
[27:50] function focused design, but versus
[27:51] human focused design. Function focus is
[27:54] we want to get people listed on TV
[27:56] shows. The first step in the process is
[27:57] fill out the paperwork. And it’s
[27:59] assuming that people come in with
[28:00] massive amounts of motivation and skill
[28:02] and are self-motivated to do things.
[28:04] Human focus is like humans are coming
[28:06] in, they’re messy, they’re gnarly,
[28:08] they’re overwhelmed, they’re their kid
[28:10] just, you know, puked in the corner, all
[28:12] the stuff that’s happening in real life.
[28:14] and then say, “Okay, given that I don’t
[28:17] have someone’s full attention, given
[28:19] that they might have 10 other kind of
[28:20] fires raging in their life right now,
[28:22] how do I make this next step so easy and
[28:24] accessible and use it to generate and
[28:27] reinforce the motivation that it took
[28:28] for them to buy and validate that it was
[28:31] a good choice for them to make and also
[28:33] uh kind of um prevent the buyer’s
[28:35] remorse that often happens when people
[28:37] go for their big dreams and hopes. So
[28:39] this is kind of the difference between
[28:41] an experience product is what I talk
[28:42] about and an information product.
[28:44] Because if information alone changed our
[28:46] lives, we would be living in Google
[28:47] topia. Like we would have six-pack abs.
[28:49] We would have overflowing bank accounts.
[28:51] We would have healthy relationships with
[28:53] everyone in their lives because we know
[28:55] how to do everything or we can find out
[28:56] how to do everything with a couple
[28:58] clicks of our button on chat GPT. But do
[29:00] we do it all? No. How many of you have
[29:04] like 10 or 20 extra pounds? You know,
[29:06] how many of you have some relationship
[29:07] in your life that’s degenerated to the
[29:10] point where you’re not sure you can
[29:11] recover it? You know, how many of you,
[29:13] you know, continue to make say
[29:15] decisions, whether it’s buying
[29:16] decisions, eating decisions, you know,
[29:18] financial decisions that don’t
[29:20] necessarily support your biggest goal as
[29:22] old times. We we all do. That’s the
[29:23] human condition. But it’s not because of
[29:25] a lack of knowing. AI has taken care of
[29:28] that. Google, YouTube has taken care of
[29:30] that. It’s for lack of motivation and
[29:33] self-belief to take action. And that’s
[29:35] where the course creation industry is
[29:37] still massively valuable. It’s not just
[29:40] giving people motivation and
[29:41] self-belief. It’s manufacturing it
[29:43] through the structure of the course, but
[29:45] also it’s providing the guidance, the
[29:46] accountability and support because no
[29:48] matter what, there is going to be
[29:49] friction in the process. You know, so
[29:53] I’ve always heard that true mastery is
[29:55] not um preventing problems. It’s having
[29:58] a plan in place for what to do when you
[30:00] hit them. So ultimately as a course
[30:03] creator, you are a guide to a
[30:04] destination. You know all the road maps.
[30:07] You know every pothole along the way.
[30:08] You know every possible detour wrong
[30:10] turn people can take. And you’re there
[30:12] to not just show them the path but also
[30:15] standing at each of the potholes and
[30:17] each of the detours being like I see you
[30:20] kind of found yourself here. Totally
[30:21] natural. It happens sometimes, right?
[30:23] And guiding people back.
[30:25] >> That was a power-p packed uh a lot of
[30:27] insights. A few takeaways for me. Um, I
[30:30] love the idea of you mentioning mastery.
[30:34] You know, one of our core values at
[30:35] Think Media is the pursuit of mastery.
[30:37] And when you talk about this, it just
[30:40] becomes abundantly clear to me again the
[30:42] difference between a master like
[30:44] yourself and someone at a shallow level.
[30:46] And I actually don’t blame people for,
[30:49] you know, thinking online courses are
[30:51] scams because again, so many people just
[30:55] slap information together or they
[30:59] haven’t gone they haven’t done the work
[31:01] that you’re describing to think about
[31:03] bringing transformation. So it’s like
[31:05] it’s not that it’s not necessarily
[31:07] valuable or even you know connected to
[31:08] the dollar amount someone might pay but
[31:11] the level of distinctions which which
[31:13] with with which you’re thinking about
[31:14] where people start what’s happening in
[31:16] their mind how to drive them to results
[31:19] you it’s these are not even like
[31:21] comparable things like just thud static
[31:24] information versus an architected
[31:26] experience on the level which you’ve
[31:28] diving into psychology I mean it’s
[31:30] giving me so many insights where I I
[31:33] would almost argue 99% % of online
[31:35] courses are function focused design
[31:37] which is already the problem. But if
[31:39] it’s human focused and you now have
[31:41] empathy, understanding of the
[31:42] individual, you’re structuring things so
[31:45] that there is constant wins, emotional
[31:48] engagement, you’re you’re hacking their
[31:50] psychology in an ethical way to drive
[31:52] them towards a result. It just shows me
[31:55] why you’re one of my mentors in this uh
[31:58] space for just learning how to
[32:00] continually do a better job at what
[32:01] we’re doing in terms of our education
[32:03] programs. So, experience versus
[32:06] information. That is a major divide and
[32:10] the creators and business owners and
[32:12] teachers who create transformation
[32:14] products are going to continue to win no
[32:16] matter what cynics say. Like it the
[32:18] online course industry is not going
[32:20] anywhere. But there will be a divide
[32:21] between those who have trust and those
[32:23] who have testimonials and those who
[32:24] experience results. And then I’d also I
[32:26] I kind of want to I I feel an objection
[32:28] here that I’d want you to hit though
[32:30] because as I listen to you talk, number
[32:33] one, it’s clear that you’re a total
[32:35] master. Number two, it’s clear that um
[32:39] you’re worth following if somebody wants
[32:40] to do this to, you know, let you teach
[32:42] and train them. But I also still might I
[32:44] I’m like this is like kind of
[32:46] overwhelming because if I want to do
[32:48] what you do, man, I just kind of want to
[32:51] sit down and organize my I mean
[32:52] ultimately it could be joining your
[32:53] program and that’s why it exists because
[32:55] people need your help. But if you were
[32:56] to just give people like some insights
[32:59] to in a way totally reshift their
[33:01] paradigm like they need to become
[33:03] someone who’s skilled at at uh not just
[33:06] transferring information but
[33:07] transferring 26 other distinctions or
[33:10] more in terms of how they’re doing this.
[33:13] What are those first steps?
[33:14] >> 100%. Um, first of all, I want to
[33:17] quickly do one more red flag. So, uh,
[33:19] because we were talking about red flags
[33:21] and I jumped straight into the solution.
[33:23] But another red flag is when you hear
[33:24] someone’s origin story and why they’re
[33:26] doing what they do. And if they don’t
[33:28] have a good reason why they’re
[33:29] delivering a particular product or
[33:31] program, then they might just be doing
[33:33] it to make the cash grab. And there’s
[33:35] nothing wrong with getting paid. But
[33:37] when you’re able to line up what you
[33:39] care about and something with what
[33:41] you’re getting paid for, it’s going to
[33:43] be a better teacher or mentor because
[33:44] that person actually is invested in your
[33:46] success because they’ve seen the result
[33:49] in their own life. So I’ll say that
[33:50] that’s another kind of challenge in
[33:52] terms of the overwhelm factor. I know
[33:55] I’ve got a level of depth and experience
[33:57] that, you know, after 15 years and $53
[34:00] million in online course and program
[34:02] sales, you know, you it’s easy to
[34:04] compare your paper plane to my jet
[34:06] plane. And I said that that’s a trap,
[34:09] right? You you definitely don’t want to
[34:11] do that. But the good news is that even
[34:13] though what I’m talking about is
[34:15] counterintuitive at first because it’s
[34:17] not the way that we’ve experienced
[34:19] courses before and it’s not the way that
[34:21] we actually experience education. The
[34:23] current education system um began in the
[34:27] industrial revolution to train people to
[34:29] become factory workers who all needed
[34:32] identical skill sets. They were not
[34:34] trained in a world in which um
[34:36] reinvention is one of the core you know
[34:40] uh requirements you know independent
[34:42] thinking the ability to kind of make
[34:44] your own conclusions. So on the one
[34:47] hand, we’ve all kind of been sat in
[34:49] school rooms that didn’t feel like it
[34:51] engaged us and supported us in learning.
[34:53] And so we think that that’s what
[34:55] learning is. But true teaching is
[34:58] actually helping people develop the
[35:01] skills for themsel. But ultimately, an
[35:03] experience product is designed to get
[35:05] people to take action from moment one of
[35:07] day one in a way that’s so natural and
[35:09] so easy and actually reinforces their
[35:12] commitment while developing their
[35:13] motivation and helping them grow skills
[35:16] each step of the way. So, I know it
[35:18] sounds like a lot to process when I
[35:20] first share it and explain it, but so
[35:22] many of my students find that it’s
[35:24] actually really simple and really
[35:25] intuitive and it actually fits with what
[35:28] you’ve experienced in your life. We’ve
[35:30] just been taught that learning is
[35:32] something different that doesn’t
[35:33] actually match, which is why we’re
[35:35] creating the products and programs that
[35:37] don’t actually deliver results and
[35:38] transformation. Not intentionally, but
[35:40] just because that’s how we learned and
[35:43] what we experienced both in the
[35:45] schoolroom and through the programs that
[35:47] we’ve taken in the past. So, this is a
[35:49] really different way to create courses
[35:51] and programs. So, when you first hear
[35:53] about it, you might need to kind of
[35:55] rewire the way you think about it. But
[35:58] ultimately, so many of my students find
[36:00] that it’s deeply intuitive because it’s
[36:02] what we know to be true. And it’s also
[36:05] all the more reason if you’re
[36:06] considering doing this to actually learn
[36:08] a methodology like that. Because what
[36:10] you might naturally do just from what
[36:13] you’ve learned to do and what you’ve
[36:14] seen out there is not the road map
[36:17] that’s going to create a course that
[36:19] drives results and transformation. And
[36:21] people’s results and transformation and
[36:23] the experience they have, how they feel
[36:25] going through it is actually the key to
[36:27] your future success. Because when you
[36:29] can deliver results and transformation
[36:31] and positive feelings and experiences,
[36:34] people will refer you. They’ll want to
[36:35] buy from you over and over again, your
[36:37] lifetime customer value will go through
[36:40] the roof. And it’s going to give you
[36:41] confidence because you’re going to see
[36:42] people taking action. You’re going to
[36:44] see people getting results. And you’re
[36:46] going to realize the value and impact of
[36:48] what it is that you have to offer. Now,
[36:51] a lot of people go into course creation
[36:53] because they themselves have either
[36:55] mastered something or developed a skill
[36:57] set and they want to share that with
[36:59] other people. But there’s a difference
[37:00] between having a skill or having a
[37:03] knowledge base and being able to
[37:04] transfer that to somebody else so they
[37:07] develop that skill and they get results
[37:09] for themselves. And I think many people
[37:12] when they first jump into this idea of
[37:13] course creation are only thinking of it
[37:16] from the perspective of sharing
[37:18] knowledge or expertise. But I found that
[37:21] all experienced products are about
[37:22] getting people across a specific finish
[37:24] line. And I say that finish line needs
[37:26] to be so clear and so specific that you
[37:28] could photograph someone crossing the
[37:29] finish line. You can have that photo
[37:31] finish race like a, you know, Formula 1
[37:33] cars and things like that. And then all
[37:35] you’re doing is helping as many people
[37:37] as possible get across that finish line.
[37:40] And I find that that actually simplifies
[37:42] product creation because all you need to
[37:45] put into your program is what’s going to
[37:47] help people cross the finish line. And
[37:49] the truth is what they’re paying for is
[37:51] not the knowledge. It’s not the
[37:53] information. It’s crossing that finish
[37:55] line. So an experience product is not
[37:57] about knowledge transfer. It’s not about
[37:59] sharing expertise. The best experience
[38:01] products either help people achieve a
[38:04] goal or complete a project or enhance
[38:08] their performance in a key area of their
[38:10] lives or enhance their status. So those
[38:13] are all really powerful finish lines.
[38:16] Now, you can add things along the way
[38:18] that kind of sweeten the pot, but that’s
[38:20] ultimately what you’re doing. So, if you
[38:22] can reframe to understand, and a lot of
[38:25] projects aren’t about necessarily
[38:27] achieving goals, and school wasn’t about
[38:29] achieving goals or outcomes. School was
[38:32] about passing a test. Schools was about
[38:35] developing skills in isolation, in a
[38:37] vacuum that hopefully would be useful in
[38:39] life at some point in the road. But
[38:41] experience products are about helping
[38:43] people achieve results that are going to
[38:45] benefit them right now, you know, in
[38:47] their current stage of life, in their
[38:48] current reality. And that’s also what
[38:50] makes them really sellable because when
[38:52] you get that clear and specific about
[38:54] what I call your product mission and
[38:56] what that finish line is, people are
[38:58] buying that outcome or transformation
[39:01] and your path to the outcome or
[39:03] transformation. So, I’ve actually found
[39:06] that this approach simplifies product
[39:08] creation and gets people to a result
[39:10] faster in a lot of different ways by
[39:13] working more naturally with the way that
[39:14] we learn and by kind of refraraming the
[39:17] expectations for yourself of what your
[39:19] program needs to be to really demystify
[39:22] the process of what needs to be in it,
[39:24] how robust it needs to be, what’s
[39:26] actually important to people. I like to
[39:29] say it’s presence over perfection. Like
[39:31] a lot of people think they need to have
[39:32] all of these like fancy videos and
[39:35] whisbang effects and hire an editor and
[39:37] hire a crew and buy all this technology,
[39:39] but you can show up on Zoom with your
[39:41] crappy computer camera and if you’re
[39:43] really present and grounded and real
[39:44] with people and guiding them, they’re
[39:46] going to find that more valuable than
[39:48] all the fancy whisbang videos. In fact,
[39:51] masterclass.com,
[39:52] the company that has Steven Spielberg
[39:54] and you know the the French laundry chef
[39:57] Thomas Keller and the famous astronauts
[40:00] and Simone Biles and all of these
[40:01] people, they have actually had to lay
[40:04] off their staff two or three years in a
[40:06] row because people don’t want to learn
[40:08] from the absolute masters things that
[40:10] are inaccessible for them. They actually
[40:13] want to learn from teachers who can show
[40:15] them a path that they can walk. It’s not
[40:17] necessarily the path to best in the
[40:19] world, absolute mastery, total
[40:21] perfection, but it’s like how can I do
[40:23] this in my life right now? How can I get
[40:25] out of this pit? How can I solve this
[40:26] problem? How can I overcome this
[40:28] challenge? How can I get to this
[40:30] outcome? And these are real people who
[40:32] want real solutions to real problems.
[40:35] And as a real person with real problems
[40:38] and real solutions that you’ve developed
[40:40] through the school of hard knocks in
[40:41] life, you can deliver that. And I find
[40:44] that that’s what people want. That’s
[40:46] what they’ll pay for. They want real
[40:48] guides to real destinations. One story I
[40:51] like to tell just to allow you to really
[40:53] embody the power that you have right now
[40:56] and the potential that you have right
[40:58] now um is imagine you wanted to climb to
[41:02] the top of Mount Everest. And you had
[41:05] choices as to who your guide or mentor
[41:07] would be. One of them was an Olympian
[41:10] who has like a perfect body, who has
[41:14] been in extreme conditions his entire
[41:16] life, kind of trained, you know, at the
[41:18] top of the highest mountains in the
[41:20] world and basically won gold every
[41:22] single time from the time he was a kid.
[41:25] And the other one was kind of like an
[41:26] overweight computer programmer who used
[41:29] to watch extreme sports on TV and never
[41:32] did it for himself and then one day woke
[41:34] up and said, “You know what? Enough. I’m
[41:36] tired of watching people do this. I’m
[41:38] gonna do this myself. But he didn’t get
[41:40] to Everest the first time or the second
[41:41] time or the third time. First time he
[41:45] wasn’t fit enough. Second time, he
[41:47] didn’t have the right gear. Third time,
[41:49] the storms came in. But he got there on
[41:51] the fourth time and he learned
[41:53] everything about what might stop you
[41:55] from getting there along the way. And he
[41:57] realized that he could make this dream
[41:59] come true for almost anyone. Who do you
[42:00] want to take you to the top of Mount
[42:02] Everest? Well, it probably depends on
[42:04] who you are. If you are that hyper fit
[42:06] uber Olympian, you might choose the
[42:07] other hyperfit seal Uber Olympian. But
[42:10] if you’re like a regular person with a
[42:12] big dream, I personally want to learn
[42:14] from the person who tried and failed and
[42:15] would understand me, right? And that’s
[42:19] what we forget.
[42:20] >> Yeah, that’s incredibly I I took so many
[42:22] epiphanies away from that. And I would
[42:24] agree that’s I think what people don’t
[42:25] realize. they think that person’s
[42:27] unrelatable and and and there’s an
[42:29] objection there that’s like, well, of
[42:31] course that guy can do it, but my lung
[42:33] capacity is probably not there. But when
[42:35] it’s somebody who’s just a few steps
[42:36] ahead who can share with me their
[42:39] struggle and their destination and then
[42:41] give me a proven path, that is a massive
[42:43] opportunity. There’s a few other
[42:45] takeaways I want to share, but as we
[42:46] land the plane, um, I do want to just
[42:49] remind people about a couple things. Um,
[42:51] if you’re listening to this, there’s
[42:53] been so much information. You’re
[42:55] probably trying to grab it all. But if
[42:57] you want to stand out, avoid being
[42:58] another scammy course, and crack your
[43:01] profitable course idea. Then, um,
[43:04] remember that Marica has a free 5-day
[43:06] challenge, and it’s only 5 to 10 minutes
[43:08] a day to crack your profitable course
[43:11] idea with AI, entirely free,
[43:13] smartcourse.com,
[43:16] and we’ll link that up in the show
[43:18] notes. Three free AI tools. So, thank
[43:20] you for putting that together so that
[43:22] you could get a idea quick when it comes
[43:26] to locking that in and consider all
[43:28] she’s just done the heavy lifting. She’s
[43:30] done this for 15 years so you’ll be able
[43:32] to um benefit from that. I also wanted
[43:35] to share a couple of my biggest
[43:37] takeaways there. I am so inspired
[43:39] listening to you talk about the
[43:40] education system, how it used to be and
[43:43] even still is all form formed in the
[43:46] industrial revolution versus where it is
[43:48] now. And this gets me excited for
[43:50] listeners that do want to get into the
[43:53] education space to package what they
[43:54] know in an online course. Even better to
[43:56] package what they know in an experienced
[43:58] product. I am personally I love learning
[44:01] lifelong leaders or lifelong learners. I
[44:04] love online courses myself, books, all
[44:06] this different stuff. But there’s just
[44:08] such a difference between the industrial
[44:10] revolution model and this new model of
[44:13] independent thinking and really
[44:15] empowering people and inspiring people
[44:16] and actually leading them to results. So
[44:18] that got me so inspired hearing that.
[44:21] I’m sure a lot of our listeners, I know
[44:22] a lot of people in our community are
[44:23] even about unschool or world school or
[44:25] homeschool and are contrarian in their
[44:27] thinking. This is the new era of people
[44:30] that are changing people’s lives and
[44:32] also making a great income doing it. And
[44:35] so I love hearing you talk about all of
[44:36] those things. So I do want to make sure
[44:38] uh Think Media podcast listeners check
[44:40] out show notes and some of the resources
[44:42] that are happening. That free challenge
[44:45] is typically a mini paid course. So
[44:47] depending on when you’re listening to
[44:49] this, definitely take advantage of it
[44:50] now because free has a great price and
[44:53] you could um if you are watching this
[44:55] sometime later, even the uh modest
[44:57] investment to get into that is worth
[44:58] doing as well. So that’s at smartcourse
[45:00] ideas.com.
[45:02] Marica, you’ve added a ton of value
[45:03] today. If people want to follow you,
[45:05] connect with you, where are you at
[45:06] online?
[45:07] >> Live your message.com, live your message
[45:08] on YouTube, live your message on
[45:10] Instagram, live your message across the
[45:12] world. That’s where you’ll find me.
[45:14] >> Thank you so much for all the value you
[45:15] added today. Okay. And Think Media
[45:16] podcast listeners, hey, if you got value
[45:18] today, it means the world if you like,
[45:20] rate, review, um, or share the podcast
[45:23] wherever you watch or listen. And hey,
[45:26] by the way, you’re listening to this on
[45:27] Spotify or Apple. You’ve been here a
[45:29] while, maybe a few weeks, even a few
[45:31] months. You’ve been getting value, but
[45:32] you’ve been procrastinating leaving a
[45:35] review. Clicking five stars on Spotify
[45:37] takes one second. Can you just open up
[45:38] your app and do that? Uh, and if you’re
[45:41] on Apple, I know you can leave a text
[45:42] review and it really does spread the
[45:44] word. Again, if you’re not getting
[45:45] value, then don’t do it. Um, if you
[45:47] actually have a complaint, I guess you
[45:49] could do that as well, too. We’ll take
[45:51] it. I would love your feedback. But
[45:52] seriously, so grateful that you are part
[45:55] of this community. And until a future
[45:57] episode, my name is Sean Kel, your guide
[46:00] to building a profitable YouTube
[46:02] channel. And I can’t wait to connect
[46:03] with you